Ancient Walled City, Older Than Egypt's Pyramids, Unearthed Off Georgia Coast

Barnum and Bailey"saurus"?

The southeastern US is home to quite a few shell mounds (middens). These were basically refuse heaps from the shellfish and bones of the sea creatures they subsisted on. These 'walls' about these early villages seem to be another variation of the classical middens, but certainly not as sophisticated as the Mayan or Egyptian structures that came later. As such, they seem entirely plausible. When touring one such midden here in FL on the east coast just north of the Space Center a few years back, it occurred to me that in such unrelievedly flat terrain as is typical of the coasts in this part of the country, the 20 feet or so of elevation gained by the middens not only would have provided the Indians with a superior long-distance view from which to spot approaching enemies, but also provided a defensible postion given the prevailing weaponry of the time. I wonder of these circular middens were conceived as a defensive rampart? After all, the shells were being deposited over a great many years in heaps anyway. Perhaps they decided to put them to some good use.

Nightbreeze makes a good point. Think of trying to climb up a hill of loose shells, it would be very difficult. The interior may have been propped up with logs to climb on so that the residents could defend from within.

Further, having a bunch of shells from the beach and food supply would make it a very reliable materials source. This would not require a lot of forethought or advanced engineering technology. It would just make sense.

Nevertheless, it is a very fascinating discovery. I'll be interested to hear more as more research and discovery is continued.

Lost sailors from distance lands.

How do you know they were lost?

that happens to you too?

Every once in a while, I think we all get bubblegumed. The seeder may delete if they like.

I love the article. Always needing to learn.

non related: Does anyone on here get a note that says, oops you may be spam, and copy these crazy unreadable letters? I get that quite often. I kind of hate to write on here anymore because of it. :-(

Bibi-1186846,When I was brand new I received that all the time, now rare.

Thanks YELLOWDOG D. However, I have been on here since June of 2009. My computer, maybe? It is as old as I am in dog years. ;-)

Thank you again.

Bibi, send in a bug report and include your Operating System, version, and type of browser.

Okay. Thank you too, BD Styers.

It wouldn't be so bad, if I could only make out the crazy letters they want me to copy.

Ain't it the truth,Bibi-1186846.

same -

had the chance back in the 90's to spend some time in Ecuador. There are places down there that no pictures would do justice.

If you ever get the chance, GO!!

For 12 years I had a ranch on the Orinoco river in Colombia and a gallery in the Hotel Tequendama in Bogota. My business partner was one of the earliest in Colombia to pay attention to its prehispanic cultures and was friends with many in the field. It always amazed me the differences between academic archaeologists and private collectors and quaqueros and their views of the past.

The area in Southwestern Colombia to the current border with Peru offers many interesting hints of a past that has yet to be explored, especially trade routes and other cultural contacts between "Peru" and "Bogota" and beyond. We face a problem today of studying prehispanic cultures by culture, tribe, or geographical area in isolation without considering they were in constant contact.

Of course, Ecuador's Valdivia culture has been a source of controversy ever since Smithsonian researchers Betty Meggers and Clifford Evans tied that culture to the Jamon culture of Japan.

But these controversies and new discoveries are what make history fun. Just when we believe we have figured everything out, new information is literally uncovered.

Just out of curiosity, what happened to the ranch?

In 1990, it was attacked by a criminal gang that wanted $10,000 a month not to return. They shot up everything. Later we found the head of the gang was the brother of the local chief of DAS (FBI). There was no way to cover our backs, so the ranch was abandoned. Twelve years of work gone in two days! It was not unusual in those days as many large ranches were abandoned. Later the land traded ownerships between the government and various gangs. It was valuable to many because it was on the Orinoco where that river serves as the border with Venezuela. Over the next two years, we sold my apartment in Bogota and the gallery and I was out of Colombia. Shame. It is a most beautiful country, and I enjoyed it very much.

I do not regret the experience at all.

P-R: I was sharing the story with my kids, and actually went back to double check that there was no satire or hoax tag. (Blame the artist's rendering, too, it looked as fake as it sounded.) Fascinating how much more there is to learn about the past. Thanks for your research, as well as to the poster.

actually went back to double check that there was no satire or hoax tag

LOL - it really did look like Bigfoot territory at first. Get smarter here, I guess ;-)

I'll be down in the Carolinas later this Spring. This just made the agenda. I'm intrigued, to say the least.

Physicist: Before you travel, see if you can get some geological information on changes to the coast line and water levels in the area over time. We often make the mistake of thinking places have aways looked as they do today - even when we know better.

Physicist-retired,

I'll be in the Carolinas because I live here. :-)

I'd love to visit the area. I'm about two hrs. from Atlanta so that would be about 8 hrs. away(?) I wonder how close visitors can get. Some islands off the coasts of the Carolina and Ga are off limits. Blackbeard's island was that way. But I think that you can now hire a private charter to take you there for the day.

I've read about Mynas coming up from S. America to that area and being accepted by tribes. Of course the Mayans would be familiar with some of these structures or similar ones. It will be interesting to see what develops.

Thanks for the article, macvine. I'll try to find a couple of links to the articles I'm referring to.

Physist: Another suggestion. See if you can find a local archaeological society/anthropological society and contact them before you travel. Often members of such groups have excellent local contacts and may even volunteer on specific sites. In any case, they may be able to give you the "low down" on what is happening, what is real and what is hype. Most such societies are very happy to be noticed and to help interested individuals whereas often universities get upset being bothered by non-professionals or non-academics.

Often members of such groups have excellent local contacts and may even volunteer on specific sites

Yup yup!!

Physist: Another suggestion...

Great idea, samenslow. I often do that when travelling in other countries, but don't even think of doing it here (relying on my own research instead).

But in this case, it might improve both access and insight.

On a side note, how are things in your neck of the woods? I've been wondering.

Darrah,

If you go, will you post about it?

In my neck of the woods, we are having a bipolar revolution, but I am safe for now. I do have access to an apartment/car in Ft. Lauderdale if I must flee, but I doubt that will be necessary.

The military have made a deal with The Brotherhood. This is about power, not religion, but both are acting like the old regeim (they are in fact). This is not working because they tell lies and everyone knows they are lies The youth will not let the revolution stop in the name of stability.

Anyone who KNOWS what is going on, including myself, doesn't KNOW what is going on or what will happen.

Thanks for the update, Sam. I'm glad to hear that you're okay for now, and that you have options.

I'm quite sad about what's going on there (aren't we all?), but still hopeful. Such a wonderful place, with wonderful people.

From your Columbia story above, I'm sure you'll be cautious.

Thanks. Believe me. I am a big chicken. My military tactics are from Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail, "Run away!"

But I remember after the ranch was lost, I was sitting with my partner and a group of Americans in the bar of the Hotel Amazonas in Puerto Ayacucho, Venezuela. We were getting drunk and crying in our beer. My partner finally said, "Enough! We had it once. Most people never had it at all." We then discussed how when one door closes another opens. It is true. And I did have 12 years in Paradise.

Wisdom - the best part about getting old. Take care, my friend.

Physicist-retired wrote:

Darrah,

If you go, will you post about it?

I certainly will. I've never seen shell rings and didn't even realize until recently that most of them are in my neck of the woods. I'd like to go to Fig Island too, which is here in SC. Since I live in upper SC, it would be about the same distance to Sapelo Island, Ga., if that makes sense.

Thanks, my friend.

If you get there before me, I look forward to reading about it. Just leave a message on any one of my seeds/articles. I never check my email (one of the great joys of being retired!), and rarely check my tracker.

Nordic runes have been found etched into rocks deep in the heart of our Northeast adding to speculation that the Vikings may have visited North America long before Columbus did.

They did.

Excellent link. Thank you. I read and article some time ago that discussed the possibility that Viking explorers ventured as far as what is not central Minnesota. Recently a farmer dug up a cache of artifacts that appear to be of Norse origin. I cannot remember where I saw it though. Getting old is a bear. LOL

"The idea that much of our archaeological assumptions are basically incorrect or incomplete has been a pet concept for me for a very long time now."

The idea that our understanding of the distant past is incomplete is foundational to archeological and historical research. If Archeologists and Historians thought they knew it all or had everything correct, there would be no research occurring. We do not "assume" anything out the past, we infer based on what is available to us. Though both fields are often slow to accept paradigm shifting evidence, paradigm shifts do occur and only after a great deal of discussion and comparison of data.

"Just like religious ideologies there are just far too many unanswered questions for me to simply accept current dogma"

That is a very insulting comparison to be made. There is no archeological, historical "ideology" beyond the belief in particular methodologies. We do not hold "dogmas" - beliefs that are held to be indisputable truths.

"Nordic runes have been found etched into rocks deep in the heart of our Northeast adding to speculation that the Vikings may have visited North America long before Columbus did."

That hasn't been in question for a very long time.

"hough no physical traces have yet been found it has been documented in ancient Chinese writings that in the far distant past an adventurous Admiral in the Chinese navy may have ventured as far West as the Americas since physical evidence exists that support his journeys around the South African continent that might not be too far fetched"

I'll take this as a reference to Gavin Menzies' 1421: The Year China Discovered the World. Menzies' arguments have been thoroughly investigated and invalidated.

Anatoly-Rex I apologize if I offended you by referring to current teachings as 'dogma.' As someone pointed out in an earlier comment here, often archaeological deductions arrived at from speculation based upon piecing together finds are taught as fact to lay people like myself by our school teachers and presented as factual in much of our media. After 67 years of living I have often found that information to be flawed and contraindicated by later discoveries and information. Also in many instances I find the official explanations themselves seem to be really weak and poorly conceived.

That is one reason that I enjoy these articles and the discussions they inspire becasue it gives me a chance to broaden my own knowledge base just by paying attention and participating to some extent. In this case the use of the word dogma obviously offended you so again I apologize for the unfortunate choice of words. Remember I am not a learned student of archaeology, only a casual but interested observer, so your patience would be appreciated. :=)

Hi Kavika!

A few months ago there was an article on ''Mayan'' ruins discovered in Georgia.

That's exactly the article I was referring to in my comment at 14.5. I'll see if I can find it.

Atlanta, GA) On December 21, 2011, architect and researcher Richard Thornton published an explosive article which suggested an archaeological site on the side of Brasstown Bald, Georgia's highest peak located 100 miles north of Atlanta, was an ancient Mayan site. The article drew an enormous amount of attention from the public as well as a certain amount of derision from academics who derided the article as lunacy or simply dismissed it outright.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Has an 1100 year old Mayan site been discovered in the Georgia mountains? - Atlanta Road Trip Travel | Examiner.comhttp://www.examiner.com/road-trip-travel-in-atlanta/has-an-1100-year-old-mayan-site-been-discovered-the-georgia-mountains#ixzz1m9JEtc45

This article is from a great site with similar articles:

http://www.archaeologica.org/NewsPage.htm

For the record, most of the Archeologists who have reviewed the claims surrounding this site in Georgia have dismissed the idea that it is Mayan.

Darrah, thanks for the link. I went looking for the story and could not find it. I'll have to check out the site that you linked also.

Anatoly-Rex, if not Mayan, I would like to see what they assume that it is. Still interesting stuff.

Sometimes reporters use Maya to mean Mexican culture as many will use Inca to mean from Peru. In other words, I would not worry about cultural associations yet.

Above I discussed possible migrations from South to North America. One key element in this diffusion was Heavy Fiber Tempered pottery. It can be traced (by dates also) from Puerto Hormiga in Colombia to Orange Period sites in FL and on to Nebo Hill sites further west.

There a "shell mound" found in Miami, Fl years ago. It has disappeared I believed due to construction. But I believe it had been seeded with Maya artifacts.

Now we can only wait and see.

Thanks for the info samenslow. I find it very interesting since I'm NA although from much futher north, Minnesota Canadian border.

Not too far from my birth place. Although I was raised in Key West, I was born in Vermillion, SD and when very young lived in Sissiton, SD. Later I did my undergrad. work at Yankton College. So, in a way, we are neighbors.

We sure were samenslow. I was born in Red Lake MN. and lived in Devils Lake ND for awhile and have spent a fair amount of time in SD.

For the record, most of the Archeologists who have reviewed the claims surrounding this site in Georgia have dismissed the idea that it is Mayan.

So most have dismissed it. It makes sense though that the Mayans would come up through Ga. and other parts of the Southeast coastal region along with moving up into the mtns. They would have enough sense to know that the coastal area is good for growing different crops then the mtns of Ga. We're not talking a space of a couple of decades. Both areas would be advantageous. They were probably different groups of Mayans too. They weren't just one people. They also had a very strong sense of a politics if you will. The Mayans would have many leaders with many agendas. That means you can't stay in one small area. But as far as the Ga mtns., you can get lost in them. The Cherokees sought coverage there. Also, you have different mineral sources. There are a lot of caverns in the mtns of the Southeast. Unless you lived in the Southeast, it's hard to realize all of this just from reading books. It doesn't need to be intellectualized to death.

But as far as the Ga mtns., you can get lost in them.

Did you just hear banjos??

heh...sorry...couldn't resist!!

You really should have tried harder. lol

Samenslow

"Sometimes reporters use Maya to mean Mexican culture as many will use Inca to mean from Peru. In other words, I would not worry about cultural associations yet."

True but the author is also the individual making the claim that it is Mayan, not a reporter reporting on a claim. I find it hard to believe that he'd use the two synonymously as an academic without realizing how other academics would respond to such a claim.

Darriah

"So most have dismissed it. It makes sense though that the Mayans would come up through Ga. and other parts of the Southeast coastal region along with moving up into the mtns."

It makes sense but just because something is logical that doesn't mean it has occurred. There is no physical evidence that is reflective of Mayan civilization present at the site, something the archeologist who is actually in charge of the dig has plainly stated. Richard Thorton is not affiliated with the dig and is in essence just some guy who has declared the site to be Mayan.

I wasn't referring to that one in particular but I think there are more to be found in the Southeastern Mtns. The Native Americans are thought to have been here for over 11 thousand yrs., especially the Cherokoee. A lot of tribes spread out into the South from Canada, including the ones who lived near the coast. The Mayan Indians were known to have come into the Southeastern states from South America, of course.

JAVE -

Exactly what I brought up in post #2.2!

Good post, but I would assert that in this world many "cities of peace" had defensive walls to protect them from aggressors. Peaceful doesn't mean naive. (not an attack on you, just my thoughts)

Ooops - meant Weeden and Weeden Creek - jeeezzzz.

I will have to look for some of those books by Gear. Thanks for the heads-up.

I checked and it's only 39 miles between the two islands.

It's looks like the Sapelo shell rings were built first and then the Skidaway shell rings were built a couple of thousand yrs. later (?) If you're coming up from Fla, you would reach Sapelo Island first.

Three ceremonial shell rings, dating back to 1750 b.c., have been found on the island

referring to Skidaway Island.

http://www.sherpaguides.com/georgia/coast/northern_coast/skidaway_island.html

Great seed, I just love this kind of stuff. Thanks

Just to go a little further (literally), Ga and SC have more shell rings than any other place on Earth. I'm not braggin'...well, yes I am. :-)

Shell rings are found in only a few countries worldwide," said Mike Russo, an archaeologist with the National Park Service. "The Southeastern U.S. rings are among the largest and best preserved." Similar, smaller rings in Peru were mined for their shells in recent years. Japanese rings are much older, shorter and less symmetrical.
About two dozen shell mounds have been found in South Carolina. Another two dozen rings are in Georgia, and a handful of others have been located in Florida and Mississippi.

http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/001253.html

You may be referring to Dr. Robert Shock's observations that have supposedly cast doubt on the existing notion that the Sphinx is contemporary with the Pyramid of Khufu the Great. He noted the presence of what appeared to be water erosion on the walls surrounding the Sphinx and also noted that the causeway from the Nile to the Pyramid actually had to go around it which would indicate that it was present prior to the contruction of that pyramid. However I don't recall him saying anything about redating the pyramid itself.

Attributing the Great Pyramid to Khufu is a mistake. His name was forged inside the Great Pyramid to attribute it to him. There are no other hieroglyphs in the Great Pyramid which has caused some to wonder whether the Egyptians actually built the Great Pyramid. In addition, there are an estimated 2 million plus stones weighing from 2.5 to 10 tons on average with some weighing hundreds of tons. It is mathematically impossible for the Great Pyramid to have been built in the 20 year period claimed for Khufu. Nobody really knows how old the Great Pyramid is.

The Sphinx for example has water erosion marks and the last time it rained there was about 10,000 years ago.

In a word, no.

See this report of torrential rains in that area (just 10 months ago):

http://www.newslook.com/videos/302253-heavy-rains-swamp-cairo

I myself have been at the Sphinx when it rained, and I'm nowhere near 10,000 years old. But, in truth, most of the Sphinx's erosion is from sand-blasting. It is, after all, in a desert.

Furthermore, there are numerous hieroglyphs in the Great Pyramid.

And finally, the Great Pyramid has been dated in many, many ways. See, for example, this, this, and this. There are more.

Unless one believes that 'forgers' went around the pyramids inserting new wood/charcoal/reed fragments into the very mortar used in it's construction, and they dug underneath the pyramid to bury 2 Sun Boats, and tens of thousands of people gathered there for no apparent reason 4,000 years ago, leaving many tons of pottery shards, encampments, and entire villages full of tools used to build pyramids (and then mysteriously disappearing), it's very hard to explain those away.

Physicist-Retired are you sure? I am sneaking up on 68 and sometimes I feel like I am 10000 years old. LOL I agree with you about the pyramid's ages despite the mystery of how the Egyptians did it. However I still think that the Sphinx predates them and was re-purposed. Dr. Schoch made a pretty convincing case for the erosion being water related rather than sand erosion in a History Channel program I believe some time back. I realize that several experts have refutted his theories on several points but when you add the analysis of the physical anomolies such as the size of the head in relationship to the body and the fact that it has been completely buried under sand many times thus protecting the body and enclosure from wind erosion it still leaves open the possibility that water erosion caused most of the damage to the body of the Sphinx as well as to its enclosure. Since the head generally remained exposed it suffered severe wind and sand erosion so it was recarved at a later date to resemble one of the Pharaohs as a tribute to him thus explaining its diminutive size relative to the body. This is substantiated by the state of preservation of some of the simple mud brick huts called mustaphas nearby that were also protected by being buried.

Once again we are dealing with what amounts to a forensic recreation of something that happened in the far distant past. A lot of what we think is based to some extent on supposition and guess work. In the case of the Sphinx there seems to be some conflicting evidence and for the sake of pure entertainment on my part I rather like to think that it is much older and that civilization is actually a good deal older that we give it credit for. :=)) I guess that to some extent I am a bit of a romantic in that regard. LOL

To which I'd add Stonehenge, the Nasca Lines, the moi 'statues' on Easter Island, Saqsaywaman, etc., etc., etc.

"Oh Great Pharaoh, Thou hast been in the sunshine too long."

Golden ;-)